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Thread: stirring the pot

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    Moderator inkbull's Avatar


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    stirring the pot

    well i feel a bit argumentative lol i think people who try to grow plants without dirt especially the high tech planted tanks are well stupid they get results fine but dont have much understanding why other than co2 root tabs and light = plant growth thats all fine and true but expensive and unnatural imo if one was to understand stuff like allelopathy ,nutrient uptake ,nutrient conversion ,biofilms , redox just to name a few they would have went dirt the hole time but they read about their being a risk with say anaerobic regions for example but what they dont know is all substrates have anaerobic regions and are a risk they make potassium, nitrate ,manganese fertz etc things that the natural process of dirt create in an aquarium and should not need to be dosed so basically plants would never show deficiency for these nutrients in aquariums with dirt making the process of the high tech non dirt tanks more difficult by that much more to those like aussiediy i compament you on your obviously difficult success i recall a long fought war on algae in that tank only ending in large amounts of co2 to fix the probem
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    Moderator thelub's Avatar


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    High tech and inert substrate are contradictory terms. If you're going high tech, at least go with Eco complete or ADA aqua soil. Dirt if you're on a budget. Trying to grow plants with high lights and CO2 without a good substrate is spending your money in all the wrong places.
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  3. #3
    Banned kracken's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inkbull Click here to enlarge
    well i feel a bit argumentative lol i think people who try to grow plants without dirt especially the high tech planted tanks are well stupid they get results fine but dont have much understanding why other than co2 root tabs and light = plant growth thats all fine and true but expensive and unnatural imo if one was to understand stuff like allelopathy ,nutrient uptake ,nutrient conversion ,biofilms , redox just to name a few they would have went dirt the hole time but they read about their being a risk with say anaerobic regions for example but what they dont know is all substrates have anaerobic regions and are a risk they make potassium, nitrate ,manganese fertz etc things that the natural process of dirt create in an aquarium and should not need to be dosed so basically plants would never show deficiency for these nutrients in aquariums with dirt making the process of the high tech non dirt tanks more difficult by that much more to those like aussiediy i compament you on your obviously difficult success i recall a long fought war on algae in that tank only ending in large amounts of co2 to fix the probem
    Well, I didn't understand a word you just said, so I'm definitely a stupid. Click here to enlarge

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    Moderator inkbull's Avatar


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    ive been told eco complete is inert but with the capability to absorbing liquid ferts and slowly distributing to the plant i dont know of a single substrate you can buy complete with all 17 elements required for plant growth when talking about dirt it either contains all elements ,creates them or makes them available threw molecular processes
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  5. #5
    Moderator inkbull's Avatar


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    i must add i am sorry to call aussie out i dont mean nothing by it im just using his tank and experiences he recorded on here as an example that imo and most dirt enthusiasts including dianna walsted think non dirt substrates are a hard road to hoe
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    Moderator RBrown's Avatar


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    Inkbull your so dirty minded!!!!Click here to enlarge I couldn't imagine having a planted tank with out dirt in it I might doctor it up some how but defiantly dirt. Click here to enlargewith a green thumb!!

    The algae war lol Click here to enlarge I look at it like this if you can't beat it join it. Algae is a plant to and who am I to eradicate it plus the fact is that I seem to be pretty good at growing it. If someone looks at my tank I tell them that it was hard to get that algae to grow there and it is part of the natural look I'm trying to achieve. They say that's so cool!!! LOL No all kidding aside If I could nuke that stuff with some co2 I would blast away but my R&D dept is a little behind!!!

    I'm thinking Middle tech tank!!!!
    Last edited by RBrown; 05-13-2013 at 12:17 AM.
    Ferengi
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  7. #7
    Moderator inkbull's Avatar


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    what do you got for light again brown???
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    Moderator RBrown's Avatar


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    T8 6500K 64watt total Diyed and timer. I think my problem is with balance with fish, food, and water changes (to many fish, to much food, and not soon enough water changes) ?? does a dirty poly filter produce phosphates or hold them???
    Ferengi
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  9. #9
    Moderator inkbull's Avatar


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    is food still accumulated in the am when lights turn on and duration of light??
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  10. #10
    Moderator RBrown's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inkbull Click here to enlarge
    is food still accumulated in the am when lights turn on and duration of light??
    not much if at all accumulated food that I see but some of the food will get in the overflow. around 10 hours of light
    Ferengi
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    #217 You can't free a fish from water.
    The Unwritten Rule: "When no appropriate rule applies... make one up!

  11. #11
    Moderator inkbull's Avatar


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    cut back lights to 8 preferably if you want more viewing time diy a moonlight n ill bet your algae problem is resolved but dont really need to modify anything else in your case low tech the excess food and fish should help
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  12. #12
    Moderator inkbull's Avatar


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    adult fish preferably and wc schedule isnt important
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  13. #13
    Moderator RBrown's Avatar


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    Thanks for the help!!!! I'm not sure if I sent you a link to this guy but his info seem solid and informative http://www.rexgrigg.com/index.html I really like bits of wisdom part
    Ferengi
    Rule of Acquisition
    #217 You can't free a fish from water.
    The Unwritten Rule: "When no appropriate rule applies... make one up!

  14. #14
    Moderator inkbull's Avatar


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    yep i wish i had his problem i got water thats good for rainbows africans etc but im trying to raise discus and apistos
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    DIYFK member fiesta90150's Avatar


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    im with the lub =)

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    Head Moderator AussieDIYFK's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inkbull Click here to enlarge
    well i feel a bit argumentative lol i think people who try to grow plants without dirt especially the high tech planted tanks are well stupid they get results fine but dont have much understanding why other than co2 root tabs and light = plant growth thats all fine and true but expensive and unnatural imo if one was to understand stuff like allelopathy ,nutrient uptake ,nutrient conversion ,biofilms , redox just to name a few they would have went dirt the hole time but they read about their being a risk with say anaerobic regions for example but what they dont know is all substrates have anaerobic regions and are a risk they make potassium, nitrate ,manganese fertz etc things that the natural process of dirt create in an aquarium and should not need to be dosed so basically plants would never show deficiency for these nutrients in aquariums with dirt making the process of the high tech non dirt tanks more difficult by that much more to those like aussiediy i compament you on your obviously difficult success i recall a long fought war on algae in that tank only ending in large amounts of co2 to fix the probem
    nothin wrong with abit of debating with planted tanks, and theres alot of methods what work and the more the greater, with dirted tanks i think there a great way for the diy planted community to get started without forking out lots of cash for ada,eco-complete and flourish substrates. i chose mixing mine 30/70 with flourite and 3mm red river rock a cheaper alternative to ada aqua soil that would cost around $1000 to fill my 8x2 floor. i like this substrate as my layout has white playsand at the front and a nightmare if i was going dirted, another reason i dont need dirt is that 80% of my plants are on driftwood and the few that are in substrate eg. crypts,lillys that are flourishing in patches of flourite thats stratigacly placed. i have never used root tabs and dont need too becouse i have iron enriched fertilised gravel where my plants roots are and dose iron weekly. some advanced substrates like ada use micro organisms additives to make dirt live and is alot better than standard substrates, saying that you can then have really deep sand beds that are live and wont course anaerobic problems. dirt is great but you cant just rely on that there's alot more with chemistry in the water column than the plants uptaking all macro's,traces from dirt, you look at dustins fishtanks there not flourishing and thats from a lack of co2, he's got high light no co2 and dirt, imbalance that shows in his tanks, then you go look at serious planted experts "big differance" not trying to sound like i know it all but if you really want your plants to thrive you have to invest big money in eqiupment,time and knowledge to really push yourself and your tank to its limits, believe me im still trying.
    cheers from aussie

  17. #17
    Moderator inkbull's Avatar


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    agree totally dustin tanks are defiantly imbalanced shane church does a sweet video about light plus nutrients plus co2 equals growth but he is missing co2 so thats like 2lights+2nutrients+0co2=1growth when say mine and your display plantyed tanks where we got high light good nutrientsand co2 so say 2light+2nutrients+2co2=2xgrowth
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    Moderator inkbull's Avatar


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    ps dustin is selling his plants he isnt necessarily shooting for optimal growth he just need stuff to stay alive so he can re sell it imo
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  19. #19
    Moderator inkbull's Avatar


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    hay you know what they say get a job you like and you will never have to work a day in your life
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    Moderator RBrown's Avatar


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    What do you think about what this guy says??


    Ferengi
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    The Unwritten Rule: "When no appropriate rule applies... make one up!

  21. #21
    Moderator inkbull's Avatar


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    well said he could get into more detail some nutriets plants prefer shoot uptake some leaf some and most roots min 4x more absorbed by roots that shoots and leaves
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    DIYFK member Patriot's Avatar


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    I cant afford to use anything but dirt because it's so cheap. I do add whatever I can to the dort to make it a little better. So far so good. I add bacteria, clay, slow release ferts, peat, etc. Hopefully that will extend the life of the dirt enough. Also waste that falls will be eaten by that bacteria and converted. I usally have more peat and clay for my crypts.

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    Moderator thelub's Avatar


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    The only benefit to using a made-for-purpose substrate like Eco Complete or ADA is they are "clean" and make it easy for rearranging your plants. With a dirted tank, (or peat like mine) its hard to replant without making a mess. I leave my lights (2 T12 6500k bulbs) on for 12+ hours a day with zero algae. I dose API Leaf Zone a few times a month and I have root tabs and that's all. I have been noticing some leaf melt and holes, but I think that had to do with flow problems and my lights were at the end of their life. I've replaced a bulb that was over 6 months old and they seem to be coming back.

    As far as fighting algae goes, you just have to find the balance between your plants and nutrients. Algae usually shows up because your plants or filtration aren't able to handle the extra bio load. If you have good strong plants that are growing well, you shouldn't have a problem with algae because they are sucking up the nutrients and not leaving any around for algae to grow with. If you have too much light, your plants are growing a lot faster and stronger so you need to increase your nutrient and CO2 load to compensate, or you'll have algae growing on weak plants that can't fight it off.
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    Moderator inkbull's Avatar


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    instability in freshly submerged terrestrial soil only lasts 6 weeks
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    Moderator inkbull's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge
    i wanna try this in my dirt
    Click here to enlarge
    i know my system is balanced so this will either make my plants blow up or grow algae like crazy
    i just did a big wc on my dirt system and noticed i threw the balance off somhow and developed some signs of algae so ill do a bit more reserch b4 i add extra nutrients i know my tap has excess iron but their are two forms of iron it goes threw a process in planted aquariums where its converted and made available to the plants so in assuming the iron in my tap is the form not available to plants and either causing a bit of metal toxisity or the form of iron is available to algae and not my plants tel the metabolism of iron is completed and its converted to the form available to my plants
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    Moderator RBrown's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inkbull Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
    i wanna try this in my dirt
    Click here to enlarge
    i know my system is balanced so this will either make my plants blow up or grow algae like crazy
    i just did a big wc on my dirt system and noticed i threw the balance off somhow and developed some signs of algae so ill do a bit more reserch b4 i add extra nutrients i know my tap has excess iron but their are two forms of iron it goes threw a process in planted aquariums where its converted and made available to the plants so in assuming the iron in my tap is the form not available to plants and either causing a bit of metal toxisity or the form of iron is available to algae and not my plants tel the metabolism of iron is completed and its converted to the form available to my plants
    I have the Osmocote plus on the bottom and some capsules but what is that fast acting Iron?? I haven't got to try it yet. whats your thoughts on azomite: http://azomite.com/

    The Osmocote plus is hard to find this link you can put in your zip and find some one close that sell it http://www.scotts.com/smg/catalog/pr...temId=cat50116
    Ferengi
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    The Unwritten Rule: "When no appropriate rule applies... make one up!

  27. #27
    Moderator inkbull's Avatar


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    i cant find osmocoat plus in my area would you send me a bag do you have pay pal
    and i cant comment on the azomite yet but looks good so far
    ps check out iro experiment on youtube guy is using the iron even though he mentions the fish a a bit worst for wear cause of it i would only use a tiny bit
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  28. #28
    Moderator RBrown's Avatar


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    Sure I can send you some!!

    Also this stuff is "Unfortunately, this product is currently discontinued and is being phased out of our product line." from scotts

    I found a MSDS sheet for it http://everris.us.com/sites/default/files/e903206_osmocoter_plus_15-9-12_3-4_months.pdf


    Last edited by RBrown; 05-16-2013 at 10:47 PM.
    Ferengi
    Rule of Acquisition
    #217 You can't free a fish from water.
    The Unwritten Rule: "When no appropriate rule applies... make one up!

  29. #29
    Moderator inkbull's Avatar


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    sweet i think im gonna try some osmocoat in some of my clay (ill send you some of that too) and probly some of the iron to just my sword and see what happen if it works out well ill diyrootab everything
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  30. #30
    Moderator thelub's Avatar


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    I think I might try this for my 200. And start experimenting on the 45 Click here to enlarge
    http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=187077
    Look here for why you shouldn't buy styrofoam for your DIY background

    My 200 gal starfire project

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