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Thread: Let's talk about FUNCTIONAL CAVES.

  1. #61
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge

    So while I was at the races, this showed up from eBay...
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  2. #62
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    So, if yer my age and leave a bunch of Legos on the counter and yer neighbor comes over, you have to explain things...
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  3. #63
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    My apologies to anyone who has been following this thread for my stall in progress. (Sometimes life gets in the way.) Today we are going to get some forward motion though.

    I figured before I do any more construction on these things that I should actually get to bench testing my work. Thats my goal this weekend. I have taken the first cave I made (the white PVC one) and added one fiberoptic cable to each entrance and Ive glued a plate of glass to the opening front of the piece so I can hopefully see what happens inside. Im gonna fill up the 55 gallon tank I have for my sump and set this PVC/glass/fiberglass cave in there, hook up the air pump and light see what happens.

    Cross your fingers for me guys because if this doesn't work all this effort was for naught.
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  4. #64
    Moderator megaphoenix's Avatar


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    Well I will say this for you, you keep your threads interesting, but now I think it's starting to get beer thirty, so I raise one for you and your new adventure. Send me the legos, I don't explain myself to anyone. Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge
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  5. #65
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by megaphoenix Click here to enlarge
    Well I will say this for you, you keep your threads interesting, but now I think it's starting to get beer thirty, so I raise one for you and your new adventure. Send me the legos, I don't explain myself to anyone. Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge
    Ha, thanks... I just dropped it in the tank to test it and had a small failure. The plate of glass leaked a little bit in a couple spots. So I pulled it out and have a fan blowing on it in the garage. A few more minutes and I should be back in action.


    In spite of the leaks,

    Click here to enlarge















    IT WORKS!!!!!



    Click here to enlarge



    I just blew thru one hose while i had the other one kinked. IT filled up and drained just like I planned... Now Ive gotta get it sealed better and hook it to a air pump and also get a valve on the drain hose....

    I get pics up pretty soon and maybe a phone video...

    ANd yea, BEER THIRTY is here.... Im making cheladas. Coincidentally, im going to reuse the empty plastic bottles of Clamato on another cave someplace in the build. It will be the "Clamato Cave" or maybe the "Chelada Cavern"... You guys can pick. Im happy to just be able to say my drinking is necessary to my build...
    Last edited by dan200; 05-17-2014 at 06:46 PM.
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  6. #66
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    Damn it. Fixed the leaks and now I have a new one...
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  7. #67
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dan200 Click here to enlarge
    Damn it. Fixed the leaks and now I have a new one...
    AND ANOTHER....

    I was planning on covering the whole thing in epoxy and glass just because but, now I have to do it... Only then will I have confidence its sealed and will stay sealed.
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  8. #68
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    OMFG!!!! More air leaks!!!! (this time its where one of the fiber optics enters the cave)

    Every time i put this in the water and turn the pump on, it springs a new leak. Its getting annoying. When I test it, Ive got it in a 55 gallon thats a little over half full. Its wedged under the trim lip on top and has a couple clamps holding it in place also. The more full with air it gets, the more it tries to float up. This will need to be weighted big time or seriously siliconed in place...

    The air pump I have is an old one. Came with the tank used. Its kinda slow filling the cave up. Im betting in a bigger tank this will be even slower because the water it will be displacing will be under more pressure. Gonna have to address that issue too.

    Im gonna keep chipping away at this thing trying to make it seal everywhere. Im basically gonna have to wrap it in more epoxy and resin and thats gonna mean a couple hours wait time before I can test it again...

    Good news is that the fiber optic lights look pretty cool when theyre on...
    Last edited by dan200; 05-17-2014 at 11:07 PM.
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  9. #69
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    If its not one thing, its another... ANd I prolly friggin jinxed myself by sayin...

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dan200 Click here to enlarge

    Good news is that the fiber optic lights look pretty cool when theyre on...
    I was adding more fiberglass and cracked one of the fiber optic cables soooo, Ive gotta wait til the fiberglass dries so I can fix that now...

    Today i basically succeeded in learning more ways NOT to build these...

    Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by dan200; 05-18-2014 at 02:50 AM.
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  10. #70
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    First thing this morning I went out to the garage and got back on this. After yesterdays frustrations/set back I was anxious to get an early start. I put more resin and glass on late last night and it was now hardened but I knew it was unfinished. I also had to replace the fiber optics. ANd, because I dont feel like chasing down air leaks in the other cave I made (the black ABS one) I did some work on that too. The fiber optics are now better protected because they are encased in fiberglass and theres a shiz load of epoxy covering all the areas where leaks might be an issue. Hopefully Its sealed up good but after yesterdays trials and failures, Im apprehensive...

    Ive got about an hour and a half before the resin has hardened.
    Last edited by dan200; 05-18-2014 at 12:47 PM.
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  11. #71
    DIYFK member Meep's Avatar


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    Instead of fiber glassing the fiber optics in, it's probably better to just drill a hole after the fact and silicone them in place...

  12. #72
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Meep Click here to enlarge
    Instead of fiber glassing the fiber optics in, it's probably better to just drill a hole after the fact and silicone them in place...
    I kinda did. Well sorta... I was under the impression this was pretty much sealed. (Obviously I was wrong) Then I drilled it out and added the fiber optics. What went wrong was pretty much my fault. Lets call it a learning experience. Originally i filled the gaps where i ran the fiber optics thru the hole Is i drilled with hot glue. A bunch of it actually. But they leaked. So i went over them with 5 min epoxy. This sealed them up perfectly. The reson i broke one of the FO lines was because i was trying to bend it would be flushed up against the exterior of the cave. It was too fragile and it cracked. Since all I did yesterday was fix leaks I decided to protect the lines by layering over them with more fiberglass and resin. I dont wanna get this all good to go and then break one again...

    Its my theory that the pvc/hot glue/silicone will eventually weaken and the air titeness of this contraption will fail at these points so Im doing overkill and layering the hell out of this thing....Its already massively overbuilt so I really DGAF at this point. I just want it to stop leaking.

    One of the causes of my failures is the sloppy way I did the glass. This is because it has been a series of after thoughts (and the fact i did a pretty sloppy job). Theres some gaps and air pockets in the layers where it bends and folds and whatnot... As i fill it up with air, it pressurizes and the air finds a way out through these flawed areas... At this point all i can really do is add more resin/epoxy and try and fix this piece.

    A solution I came up with to prevent doing this with future caves is to build the structure and then coat it in resin at the joints and where the fiber optics and air lines connect a few times (no fiber glass). then see if its sealed. If it is then I will add more resin and fiberglass and make it more structurally sound. If its not i cna keep adding resin til it is...

    Like I said before. I have figured out a lot of ways not to so this already LOL...

    I would be using silicone instead of hot glue already but the cure time is too long. The HG is hardend almost instantly. Once I have worked out all the bugs in this one, i will make a cleaner and simpler version of this thing and It should be much easier and will holpefully work first try...
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  13. #73
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    its leaking again!!! Hooray.... but even with the leaks, it works basically...

    Click here to enlarge

    The plastic bag is holding all the hoses and fiber optic lines. The bag kept all that stiff out of the way while I epoxied and glassed this up...
    Last edited by dan200; 05-18-2014 at 03:49 PM.
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  14. #74
    DIYFK member Meep's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dan200 Click here to enlarge
    The reson i broke one of the FO lines was because i was trying to bend it would be flushed up against the exterior of the cave.
    Use a hair dryer to heat it up, it will bend a lot easier... You can also use a heat gun and literally turn it into a noodle but you might lose some of it's light transmission qualities if you go overboard...

  15. #75
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Meep Click here to enlarge
    Use a hair dryer to heat it up, it will bend a lot easier... You can also use a heat gun and literally turn it into a noodle but you might lose some of it's light transmission qualities if you go overboard...
    I have two thicknesses. The first ones i tried were the larger diameter. I played with heating and bending them before this and ran into the exact problem u describe where you lose light transmission with the bends. This is some cheap stuff I got off ebay a while ago. There's plenty of little fractures in it already so im trying not to kink it up any more.

    The thicker the strand, the more expensive. I replaced the thick one I broke with three thinner ones and I like the results way better. Its brighter and its way more flexy and easier to work with. I think when I re up on FO I will buy more of the thinner stuff. Hopefully it only changes the cost by a little. Im actually a fan of the seller too. He was pretty stoked to hear what I was making. He has all kindsa cool hobby pics of stuff peeps have done with his FO on his ebay ads but none are underwater projects. Its mostly model trains and whatnot...

    I tried, (and succeed) at making a underwater DIY led light but everyone has me all paranoid about it failing one day and electrocuting my fish... http://diyfishkeepers.com/forum/show...ing&highlight=
    Last edited by dan200; 05-18-2014 at 04:36 PM.
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  16. #76
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    I apologize for my hiatus from this project. I have been on tour pretty steadily going to races almost every week. My team did just collect fourth place out of 27(ish) starters in our vehicle class at the Baja 500 which is OK I guess. Three races with our new car and three fourth place finishes. Not being able to break into the top three is starting to piss me off though... But thats why they call it "racing" not "winning"...

    Click here to enlarge

    ANyway. it looks like my schedule is relaxed for july so I will be getting back to this project.
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  17. #77
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    Let's talk about FUNCTIONAL CAVES.

    So this is where I am at now.

    Click here to enlarge

    As usual, my pics are crappy.

    To simplify things i stepped away from the fiberglass for a bit and went with regular plumbing fittings. Some were a little modified with my saw. The fiberglassed caves proved difficult to make so they were air tight. Using the plumbing fittings solved the leak problems.

    This layout has the cave entrances about 3.5 inches off the tank floor. I set it up so a eel can sorta go in and out of each cave and make its way from one end of the tank to the other popping out every foot or so as it does.

    All the caves you see (with the exception of the black one) will be able to fill with air so I can evict the eel when i want to. I will fill them by having airstones under hidden the entrances. When I turn on the air pumps the airstones will sorta "trickle air up into the cave". ( I bench tested it and it worked in my 55 gallon so I hope it works here)


    This is just the bottom layer of caves... More is coming.

    Once the rest of the caves and tunnels are done (picture a second floor of them) i will add the airlines and the tanks plumbing and all the other crap im planning on doing with my background.

    After that Ill worry about how to deconstruct it so it will all go back together in sections inside my tank and still work. I've gotta fill it with stones and rocks so it wont be buoyant and do all the other stuff. (Sand fall, underwater lighting and blah blah blah)

    It's no where near done but it's getting there.
    Last edited by dan200; 07-17-2014 at 06:17 AM.
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  18. #78
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlargeClick here to enlargeClick here to enlargeClick here to enlargeaClick here to enlargeClick here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  19. #79
    Moderator megaphoenix's Avatar


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    Wow it seems that you are taking us on a roller coaster, and I am just happy to be along on the ride. LOL
    DIYFishkeepers.com, bringing the world together one tank at a time.

  20. #80
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by megaphoenix Click here to enlarge
    Wow it seems that you are taking us on a roller coaster, and I am just happy to be along on the ride. LOL
    Thanks, my thread got some views today and I was a litlle bummed it didnt get any comments til now.

    its set up in my living room and I just stare at it. There is a shiz load of planning i have to do to make this all work. the layout is just difficult to plan with so much going on. Ive built it in my head like a million times and now its finally starting to take shape. I have done plenty of over thinking things with this and have wasted a lot of time, money and materials along the way for sure. But mistakes is how we learn, right?

    I think I am going to lay out the plumbing before I move forward on any more caves. I want to use an electric sprinkler valve to partially divert the return line from the sump so that (when paired with a sprinkler timer) the caves will automatically get flushed out for a few minutes once a day. Eventually i would like to have the caves automatic flush system be timed with feeding time in the hopes that I can actually train the eel to know that when the caves have a current going thru them that its time to come out and get some dinner. Will it work? I dunno. Thats up to the critter i suppose....

    Anybody else wanna give me some comments on my pioneering? I need some positive reinforcement. LOL
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  21. #81
    DIYFK member sincere01's Avatar


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    Looking great, been following this thread though I haven't had much to be able to input as I don't have much experience with what you are doing. Its cool to see it take shape with those last few pics. Can't wait to see the progression and hear how it ends up working.

  22. #82
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dan200 Click here to enlarge
    Thanks, my thread got some views today and I was a litlle bummed it didnt get any comments til now.

    its set up in my living room and I just stare at it. There is a shiz load of planning i have to do to make this all work. the layout is just difficult to plan with so much going on. Ive built it in my head like a million times and now its finally starting to take shape. I have done plenty of over thinking things with this and have wasted a lot of time, money and materials along the way for sure. But mistakes is how we learn, right?

    I think I am going to lay out the plumbing before I move forward on any more caves. I want to use an electric sprinkler valve to partially divert the return line from the sump so that (when paired with a sprinkler timer) the caves will automatically get flushed out for a few minutes once a day. Eventually i would like to have the caves automatic flush system be timed with feeding time in the hopes that I can actually train the eel to know that when the caves have a current going thru them that its time to come out and get some dinner. Will it work? I dunno. Thats up to the critter i suppose....

    Anybody else wanna give me some comments on my pioneering? I need some positive reinforcement. LOL
    LOL, I just read my own post and realized I sound like this my friends girlfriend (who i really can't stand).

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sincere01 Click here to enlarge
    Looking great, been following this thread though I haven't had much to be able to input as I don't have much experience with what you are doing. Its cool to see it take shape with those last few pics. Can't wait to see the progression and hear how it ends up working.
    Thank you. I'm hoping to bring some life back to this thread because I am about to need some help with my plumbing. Im gonna draw up how I think its gonna go and then come back here with it and see what the wizards here have to say about it.
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  23. #83
    DIYFK member vanish's Avatar


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    I think you are on the right track using standardized pvc. Long term plan to cover in styrofoam? Is there going to be airline at the peak of each cave so that excess air can bleed out?

    I totally know what you mean about attention seeking and not meaning to act like that. I've had several threads, some of them long, on various forums, often with questions and get little to no response. Someone else might ask the same question and get 10 response, and I'm like ... W T F...

    I'm not a fan of the "trickle up air" with airstone idea. I think injecting air or water straight in as better. It also has more risks.

  24. #84
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vanish Click here to enlarge
    I think you are on the right track using standardized pvc. Long term plan to cover in styrofoam? Is there going to be airline at the peak of each cave so that excess air can bleed out?
    The fiberglass was fun but a nightmare to keep airtight. It was also messy and time consuming. Mostly because I have very little experience with the stuff. My long term plan is set up all the caves, plumbing and lighting and then use some more fiberglass to strengthen the structure. Then Ill go over that with spray foam. Im gonna fill the back with rocks and bricks and cement and whatnot to too so that when i fill these with air they wont become light enough to have the whole thing float. Ill probably end up siliconing this in place anyway though. And yes. there will be air line that connects to each cave at the highest point in the cave. The line will connect to a valve outside the tank and i can open the valve and release the trapped air that way.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vanish Click here to enlarge
    I'm not a fan of the "trickle up air" with airstone idea. I think injecting air or water straight in as better. It also has more risks.
    I tried to get that to work and it did. But not as well as having the airstone below it. I think it was because of the fact this builds pressure and that pressure made it harder for the pump I was experimenting with to fill the chamber with air.

    When I had the air enter the chamber from below, instead of using the power of the pump to displace the air i was using the fact that air rises as the force to fill up the chamberand displace the water that was in it that way. The chamber filled faster and I think it probably put less stress on the pump. I should probably say that I have no idea how much power the air pump has. It came used with my tank and is from a water fountain of some kind. The guy I got it from was a pool builder and he told me the air pum was leftover from a job he did. Its not a monsterously powerful device though. but its slightly physically larger than ones sold off the shelf at a LFS. I expect i will use several air pumps to complete the build. I might even try and combine them. We will cross that bridge when we get there.

    A benefit of the airstones being below the entrance is I can see them when they work, so I know they are working. And if i gotta mess with it its not a massive project to do it. Also, the cave entrances will have lighting and I bet the lit area will look cool with the bubbles floating thru it. ANd, like you said theres less risk this way. I tried every way I could think of when I was bench testing this in my 55 gallon and this is the way that worked every time and best. I would rather have it be as you described but I couldnt get it to work well enough so this became my back up plan basically out of necessity. It will also be easier to do i think.

    Thanks for your comments. You guys keep me motivated.
    Last edited by dan200; 07-18-2014 at 05:30 PM.
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  25. #85
    DIYFK member vanish's Avatar


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    I think you convinced me on your point about pumping against the pressure inside cave.

  26. #86
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vanish Click here to enlarge
    I think you convinced me on your point about pumping against the pressure inside cave.
    when I first started on this journey I had not taken into consideration the pressure aspect. The concept was soo simple in my head. I am super glad I did some bench testing before I got too far along because this woulda been a nightmare to correct if i had not.

    One thing I can assure you of is that you wont see the air stones. I know looking at my pics so far this looks like a pile of pvc and egg crate right now but in the end it should be very natural looking.
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  27. #87
    DIYFK member sincere01's Avatar


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    Any progress pics?

  28. #88
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sincere01 Click here to enlarge
    Any progress pics?
    LOL. nope. I had intended to get back on this but then my boss went and bought 11 chopper motorcycles. Hes selling thme to som guy in dubai. Then he found out that a shipping crate costs 600 bucks each. He asked me to try and beat that price. So I did. then he bought 3 more bikes. So this has absorbed my life. Then i had a race trip that took me away from home for two weeks. And blah blah blah... Ive been busy.

    Ive actually lost my place on what i was gonna do next. Tonight im gonna sip some beer and try and try and decide where my sand falls are gonna go and how Im gonna do them so they work around the caves.

    im gonna need yer guys help soon too to help me decide where to drill my tank since i figured out the back isnt tempered. and the links for the right size drill bit to get and bulkheads etc...
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  29. #89
    DIYFK member dan200's Avatar


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    Got done at the shop early today and went to homedepot on the way home (and the liquor store). I have been tinkering with a sandfall and drinking pabst blue ribbon for three hours. I have a decent buzz, theres only about a half gallon of water on the floor of the house, and the sandfall works (sorta).

    Im using some sand i saved when I redid my pool filter. Its not making things cloudy but it certainly is coming out way too fast. its not landing anywhere near where i want/need it to. its likely my pump is too powerful. Thankfully this is something that I can remedy easily.

    My other issue is I need to make the catch tray steeper. The sand that it does catch wont slide back so I gotta adjust that too.

    Im gonna keep working on it (and my 30 pack).
    If laughter is the best medicine, I am part of its corrupt pharmaceutical lobby

  30. #90
    DIYFK member Meep's Avatar


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dan200 Click here to enlarge
    drinking pabst blue ribbon for three hours. I have a decent buzz, theres only about a half gallon of water on the floor
    Sounds like you need to take more potty breaks Click here to enlarge

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