Let's talk about FUNCTIONAL CAVES.

[dan200]

I doubt the fiberglassing of the extra joints is even needed for a prototype. Obviously it was needed for the large center section.

im pretty sure this has ceased to be the prototype and at this point im probably gonna end up using it in the tank. Thats why I decided to fiber glass the joints. Future ones (there will be many LOL) will be made a bit differently, but conceptually they will still be the same i think.

the changes will mostly be in how i fill it with air and how i plumb it to have the powerhead flush it out.

I have a little bit of fiber optic cable for lighting I need to incorporate into this too. I dont wanna really light up the whole inside of the caves but i do want to have it so that i can have the whole tank be dark but the entrances to the caves have some light coming out of them.

In the bottom right of this pic you can see what im going for sorta with the lighting.

[Meep]

The hot glue will fail on PVC even without any water contact, vinyl expands and contracts way to much and it's hard to bond to, to begin with that is why cements are used instead of glues on PVC and dyes used instead of paint generally... The glue itself will hold up fine underwater though, but it's bond to pretty much everything will fail under water... You will get better bonds with the hot glue if you get 'industrial' versions, I'm personally not fond of hot glue and avoid it for most things, but when I do use it I only use industrial grade sticks and try to match the glue stick to the items being glued as some work better on different things...

[dan200]

The hot glue will fail on PVC even without any water contact, vinyl expands and contracts way to much and it's hard to bond to, to begin with that is why cements are used instead of glues on PVC and dyes used instead of paint generally... The glue itself will hold up fine underwater though, but it's bond to pretty much everything will fail under water... You will get better bonds with the hot glue if you get 'industrial' versions, I'm personally not fond of hot glue and avoid it for most things, but when I do use it I only use industrial grade sticks and try to match the glue stick to the items being glued as some work better on different things...

Thanks.

I think I'll be good then using the hot glue. I'll still try the PVC glue out though I bet.

The reason I think the glue will be fine is because it will be reinforced with the fiberglass surrounding it and that fiberglass will provide much of the strength. In reality all the PVC is doing is making a frame for the fiber glass and the fiberglass is the structure.

The nice part about the glue is its easy to work with and I have a bag of sticks for it already. I pull the trigger and point. I dont have to mix solvents, put a cap on it when Im done, it dries quickly, its non toxic, etc. If i used silicone it would take a lot longer to make one of these and Im betting the silicone's ability to bond to PVC would be crappy too. With the hot glue, if i gotta step away from the project for a minute or an hour or a day, all i gotta do is unplug the glue gun. I dont have to worry about silicone drying out in the caulk gun or tube.

The wheels are spinning in my head for some more versions of functional caves. Ill probably head to the hardware store in a little while and get some supplies.

[vanish]

Most hot glues are fine in tanks.

[dan200]

Well I hit the hardware store up. Came home with some new cheaper brushes for fiberglassing and a ten foot piece of ABS pipe thats 3 inches in diameter. I really wish they carried it in PVC because ABS (the black stuff) is about twice the price. The ten footer cost me over 20 bucks and a PVC version woulda been about half that but they dont carry anything bigger than 2 inch at the big box hardware store I went to. At least now I should have enough to do all the 3 inch caves I want...

fishtank- noun. a glass box of water you throw money into.

[Meep]

Came home with some new cheaper brushes

If you have a local Harbor Freight that is where I get all my fiberglass brushes, you buy them by the case for MUCH less than the big box stores, especially when they are on sale like they are now, use a 20% or 25% off coupon and the savings are even bigger...

http://www.harborfreight.com/pack-of...shes-4181.html

http://www.harborfreight.com/36-piec...hes-61567.html

[Divinehammer]

it's sad I can black ABS cheep compared to PVC, PVC cost me a $1 a foot from a wholesaler, the box stores are 2 bucks a foot or more. when I start the plumbing the 2000 I am going right to Ipex it's self in town and buy direct probably way cheaper, we do most of their local shipping for them LOL!

[dan200]

Thats a smokin deal!!! Ive got a HF just a few miles away and Im there often enough to deserve a covered parking spot. Next time thats what ill get. Thanks!!

I bought these.



they are plumbers flux brushes. A pack of five was 2 bucks and I bought two packs. I woulda hit HF today but getting around is a little tough with my broken foot and HF doesnt sell PVC so i spent more and got less but, it was convenient. Since I can barely walk today I rode the electric cart for handicapped people around the hardware store. It was comical to carry the ten foot pipe while driving that thing. I felt like "The Black Knight" and I was practicing "jousting" other people shopping for home improvement stuff.

[dan200]

it's sad I can black ABS cheep compared to PVC, PVC cost me a $1 a foot from a wholesaler, the box stores are 2 bucks a foot or more. when I start the plumbing the 2000 I am going right to Ipex it's self in town and buy direct probably way cheaper, we do most of their local shipping for them LOL!

yea. the ten foot piece was $20.45 and a five foot section was 15 bucks. I figured the extra five bucks for twice the pipe was a deal (relatively speaking). Im sure ill get some good use out of it and now I have enough to screw up a few times too.

Ive been saving some plastic containers and bottles and whatnot and Im gonna use those in some capacity I imagine. I cant wait to have all this crap put together and take a pic of the whole thing just to see how ugly the guts of my BG are and then comeback and coat it with foam, cement and drylock and show an epic transformation.

[Meep]

Thats a smokin deal!!! Ive got a HF just a few miles away and Im there often enough to deserve a covered parking spot. Next time thats what ill get. Thanks!!

FYI for large areas I use the 2" brush as is, but when I'm doing smaller stuff and and using the 1" brushes I sometimes take some scissors to the bristles and cut them down a bit so they are stiffer... All depends on the fiberglassing job I'm doing, a few years back I was actually doing so much fiberglassing with those brushes I developed some big hard calluses on my fingers from holding them for so many hours a day, the brush literately locked into place can't say if that was a good or bad thing...

[dan200]

FYI for large areas I use the 2" brush as is, but when I'm doing smaller stuff and and using the 1" brushes I sometimes take some scissors to the bristles and cut them down a bit so they are stiffer... All depends on the fiberglassing job I'm doing, a few years back I was actually doing so much fiberglassing with those brushes I developed some big hard calluses on my fingers from holding them for so many hours a day, the brush literately locked into place can't say if that was a good or bad thing...

The other night the only brush i could find (that i was willing to destroy with resin) was a two inch wide one. i took half the bristles on one side and taped them up against the handle. Then i used the remaining ones to do the resin spreading. after, i cut off the used and hardened bristles I took off the tape and used the remaining bristles to do a second coat of resin. It was the best solution I had since I was a little drunk and it was 11 or so at night and going to buy some new brushes wasnt really an option. it got the job done but i woulda rather just had the tools I needed instead of improvising.

Since I screwed up and cut off my finger five months ago (and messed up my thumb and index in the process) simple things are now more difficult for me. Building my tank set up and getting my fear of my power tools and my ability to use them safely is part on my rehabilitation. I have new found respect for my table and miter saw now obviously and all the little tinkering this project entails are teaching me coordination with my hand. Three months ago I could barely open a zip lock bag, button my shirt, and write my name. Now I can do a lot more with my hand and this whole project is kinda a way to prove to myself what I am capable of. Things take me longer, and the nerve damage makes my hand a little shaky but Im gonna get this thing done regardless of how frustrating it is...

[dan200]

Well tonight I cleared myself a nice little work area. Ive had two empty tanks sitting in my living room for a while now (A 55 that will become my sump and the 130 for this build). I also had the crappy stand that came with my 130. So I stuck my 130 under my dining room table (that i have literally NEVER eaten a meal at ever). The 55 is on top of a sturdy bookcase. Sitting where the tank will finally be in my house is the crappy stand that came with it. I also set up a shelf in the bookcase and all my tools and parts and crap. None of that has anything to do with my caves but I now have some much needed room to work.

Anyway, heres the next phase of my project.

In order for this 6 foot long BG to work i gonna have do lotsa experimenting with it. I decided to build a wooden box thats the same dimensions of the interior of my display tank but without the front piece. It will be just the floor, the back and the sides. When that is done, I can get started doing my actual layout and try and figure out how to run all the plumbing for everything. Ive gotta build it in sections because of the cross brace on my display tank. Then there is the fiber optics. And the sandfall(s), overflows and the pump return, and whatever else I am forgetting at the moment. Basically im gonna need to mock everything up and make adjustments and having a wood box to do it with will make everything easier. And I can keep the wood box on top of the crappy stand and do it there in my living room. (ill do the toxic and messy stuff out in the garage of course)



Part of the challenge will be that Im not planning to have this be like a big wall that goes all the way to the top of the tank. I want something with a little more depth to it. The following pic should give ya an idea of where my head is about how I want this to be shaped.



I would like for my fish to be able to enter tunnels that exit out the top giving the illusion that the tank is way deeper and fish can swim in from the great beyond behind my BG, when in actuality they came from the front. Please note that this wont be a planted tank.

Now, besides making it pretty, all this crap has to function correctly too. Its gotta fill with air (and drain). It has to be able to be "flushed". And i wanna see the fiber optic lights work under water. I have a lot going on here obviously and I'm gonna have to bench test all of it. Thankfully i can do all that in the 55 on my bookcase. Since my 55 has no cross brace on the top, i should be able to fit big sections into it very easily.

So, I've gotta make the wooden mock up box, buy some more egg crate and get going. I think I have enough lumber here to make the box without going into my wallet so thats kinda nice.

But before I do any of that, I need to get some rest.

[vanish]

I know you've already got the wood, but throwing this out there: why not use something cheap like cardboard or foamboard for the testing box? At my dollar tree I can get 20x30 inch sheets of foamboard for $1. Can't imagine wood being that cheap.

By the way, good idea to do the mockup. Make sure you take trim into account. Nice that you don't have a brace, that will make things easier.

[dan200]

I know you've already got the wood, but throwing this out there: why not use something cheap like cardboard or foamboard for the testing box? At my dollar tree I can get 20x30 inch sheets of foamboard for $1. Can't imagine wood being that cheap.

By the way, good idea to do the mockup. Make sure you take trim into account. Nice that you don't have a brace, that will make things easier.

I'm going with wood for a few reasons but mostly because I'm gonna need it to be sturdy in a way that cardboard or foam board wont be strong enough. Here's my logic. If i use wood it will be rigid enough to carry it out to the garage as one big piece and set it on a couple of saw horses. Mock up will happen inside my house but eventually I will have to carry the whole thing out to my garage. With a wood frame I will be able to easily carry it out to the garage later to do the messy and/or toxic stuff like the fiber glass, cement, pvc cement and paint. Also, Im betting that I might wanna be able to tip this thing onto its back to do some of the work. There will be areas where the construction will involve making some ledges. These ledges will probably be easier to build if the project is laid on its back. I cant find the link but Im stealing the the wooden mock up tank idea from one of the builds I found on the web somewhere. It seemed to work out well for the guy.

. Make sure you take trim into account. Nice that you don't have a brace, that will make things easier.

I wont forget to take the trim into account.

Nice that you don't have a brace, that will make things easier.

Yea, im pretty stoked about that.

[dan200]

What you are looking at is my mock up box. Its fairly square. Doesn't weigh too much and is of course, gloriously ugly. This was completely built with leftover lumber I had on hand. The width is 3/4 of an inch smaller than the actual interior dimensions of my tank. I did this so that if i take up the entire interior space with whatever i build, it can still fit it into my display tank. My tanks floor is 17 inches front to back and this is only 15.5 on the inside, but that's no big deal. Nothing Im gonna make is gonna go all the way to the front of the tank anyway. The interior height of this is almost the same height of the interior of my tank taking into consideration the tanks rim and cross brace. I dunno if ya can tell, but the top edge is sorta uneven so Ill tape off the exact height i cannot go above when i get started on doing the build.




It was a bit challenging/frustrating to make because its difficult to grip my saw and drill but, I got it done.

[dan200]

I think my next move should be to attack the necessary plumbing for my filter returns (and intakes)

Im going to be running two filters- One canister and then my sump (which I still gotta build)

The canister is a Fluval 404 which claims to flow at 320 gph. The head loss will be about 4 feet on this one. Im figuring ill use the plumbing that came with it and combine that with a half inch tube built into the tanks BG.

The sump plumbing im not sure of yet. Its very likely i will be using a Danner 9.5 pump which claims 950 gph. Im gonna have just under five feet of head loss on this one putting it at about 650 gph. I dunno what size plumbing to use if I use that pump. I might get a more powerful pump too. I dunno yet.

heres a schematic i drew just now.

red are return lines and the yellow are the intakes.



I am happily soliciting opinions on this.

[dan200]

So, the pizza guy showed up tonight and handed me an amazon box (thats been on my patio all day probably). I bought about 45 bucks worth of stuff the other day. All that was in this box was my power head. It came with 3 feet of hose (wasnt expecting that).

I pulled out my box of lace rock and stacked it up in the mock up box to see how much space it took up. I can get lace for about 50 cents a pound from this breeder I found on craigs list. (The dude is nice as hell and has 29 tanks, mostly big ones, running in his house. Next time im there ill take some pics. Every room in his house has like 8 different tanks. He lives kinda out in the sticks so its a headache to get there is the drawback.) Anyway, i already have about 60 pounds of lace and I'm betting I'll need at least twice that.

Tomorrow Im gonna chop up some pipe and what not and see where I end up.

[dan200]

I got started mocking up the PVC today. It is a bit of a process. Not the actual assembly, but the deciding where and how I want things to be. These pipes and tunnels are gonna all twist around eachother so its a combination of art and function at this point.







There are some braces in there that look like white sticks. Those are cut up plastic shirt hangers held in place with hot glue. I know it looks like the pipes are flushed up against the back wall but they arent.

So far I am trying to have all this stuff hang off the back sheets of egg crate and not use the floor for support. Its working,

[vanish]

Going to do Great Stuff + Lace Rock?

[Meep]

My word of advice, get some black Krylon and spray the insides of the white pipe before you get too far along, nothing screams fake more then visible bright white PVC inside the cave opening

[dan200]

Going to do Great Stuff + Lace Rock?

And some cement and fiberglass but, yep, thats the plan. Id really like this to look as much like natural lace rock as possible. Im not sure that i will be happy with the actual surface you see being painted foam or fiber glass. Im actually counting on it not looking like I want it to so It very likely this will be sub structure of grid and pipe and zipties (and whatever else) and then I will fill in the gaps with foam and cement and sorta plate the side you see with real lace rock. Ive seen it done a before in a few different ways and that is why I was inspired to take this on. It wont considered it finished unless the fake parts look very real. Hopefully i have the skills and the patience to make it happen.

I read a lot about the art of aquascaping as it deals with shapes, colors and the rule of thirds and what not. One thing they say is to have all the rock match. My lace is reddish brown and the guy I get it from says every truck full of he gets is all the same reddish brown as the stuff he sold me so hopefully I can match it all. If not i will paint my natural rock so it all does match. Im gonna have to drylock the whole thing anyway but if it looks like the BG is mortar and the lace is bricks then I bet i paint the whole thing

My word of advice, get some black Krylon and spray the insides of the white pipe before you get too far along, nothing screams fake more then visible bright white PVC inside the cave opening

I was planning on that. In fact, in the areas where the white pipe has a chance of being seen I have already sanded the insides of the pipe so the paint has a scuffed area so it will adhere better. I certainly dont wanna do this much work and then have what lloks like a broken sprinkler pipe sticking out of it. I wont be doing any spray painting untill I get this thing out to the garage but I will make sure ya dont see any white in the finished product because, like you mentioned, it would look horribly fake. And, since i will have fiber optic lighting inside these at the entrances (so it looks like this insides are glowing), the light would certainly magnify the white.

The only progress I made so far today is I went to Hobby Lobby to get a new foam cutter because I broke mine last night. Unfortunately they were closed because its Sunday. After dinner Im gonna tinker some more. Ill post pics If I get anywhere.

[Meep]

The only progress I made so far today is I went to Hobby Lobby to get a new foam cutter because I broke mine last night. Unfortunately they were closed because its Sunday.

Make sure you use the 40% off one item coupon

http://www.hobbylobby.com/assets/dyn..._18_coupon.gif

[dan200]

Make sure you use the 40% off one item coupon

http://www.hobbylobby.com/assets/dyn..._18_coupon.gif

AWESOME!!! THANK YOU!!!!

[dan200]

Getting this all set up is getting pretty frustrating and its slow going... Frustrating because I have to make it work so it all has to be leveled correctly so they can fill and drain. Then I have to step back and stare at it for a while and figure out where to put the next tube. Im making progress but very slowly and my OCD is not helping.

Im going to probably get out the graph paper and a pencil and sketch some more. Designing it on the wall is difficult because I cant just lay it all out at once.

Ill get there though...

[jungleboy]

Hot glue has been fine for me. I have used it many times

[dan200]

So ive started doing something I haven't done yet out of necessity. If I just use the pipe i kinda limit my design possibilities so ive begun to add to my build by creating skeleton frames out of plastic stick from cut up coat hangers and short rings of PVC. Im also using zip ties to bridge the gaps or sorta "skin" them. Later I will come back with fiberglass and fill it all in. Im also not going to have all the caves so that they can fill up with air. Lots of them will, but I wont be able to do it with them all. This adds a new challenge but it should also make doing this easier







It will be nice to finally lay some glass on this so it has some rigidity. Being all tacked together like it is now, it flexes and is a little fragile. The structure doesnt really flex and the pipes are soild but the way its hooked to the eggcrate back wall lets it move a little. Im going to have to cut away some sections and shave it here and there and in its current state thats just not possible. its very likely I will take this panel out to the garage and put a little glass on it tonight before I go to bed so tomorrow I can have a nice rigid piece to work with.

[dan200]

So, it appears my insomnia is alive and well tonight. Its almost 130 in the morning and Im wide awake...

I was gonna lay the fiberglass in the garage but, since everyone is asleep and I have all the windows open and fans going (its awesome weather today/tonight) I mixed up a couple ounces of resin and went to work a little. As with all my glass work so far, it aint pretty but its working. Tomorrow Im gonna take it out to the garage and lay it on its back, egg crate side down, and do the areas I couldnt reach tonight when it was upright. Heres some horrible photos for anyone whos watching this thread...

[dan200]

I did a couple beers worth of work tonight and glassed the bottom side and shaved down some of the rough edges with my palm sander. Ill post pics after the epoxy on my hands washes off/dries...

I still cant find my dremmel tool which would be a big help. IVe looked EVERYWHERE!!!! its driving me nuts...

[dan200]

Heres what i have now. This piece which is actually two caves (one functional and ones just a tunnel and it wont fill with air) is nearing completion. But its still got plenty of work to be finished.

Ive got a race in Vegas this weekend and Im leaving tomorrow so there wont be any updates for a few days.

I also stumbled upon a new idea that will hopefully speed things up though. Ive gotta spend a little cash (maybe 40 bucks) but i think it will be a game changer for this project. Im not gonna tip my hand just yet but I bet you guys will get a kick out of my new idea.

Anyone wanna guess?

[dan200]

Man does my phone take crappy pics...


Anyway Im still playing with the same piece but its basically done structurally wise.

This pic shows what it will look like when placed in the tank. Its a little crooked and when installed it will be so the lowest point on the right matches the furthest cave entrance on the left.




This is the back side of it...




I know this looks barely different than my last update but let me tell ya, its not.

First i had to pull it off the background grid and that was tricky because the resin had fused the cave to the grid. After that I used my new angle grinder with a cut off wheel and trimmed away most of the little sharp edges the strands of glass leave.

Then I added more glass and carved away some pvc and added more glass and resin and coated the insides of the caves because there was all kinds of nooks and crannys in there and i wanted to smooth it all out. Since I am sloppy, it took a while.

ANd I had a setback. I used some resin that a coworker gave me. well it was old and the hardener didnt work. Well, it worked poorly. So i went over it all with new stuff and lotsa hardener. All this has resulted in a near bullet proof piece thats massively overbuilt.



The aspirin bottle is for the air stone. First I cut the bottom off in a way so that it would fit snugly against the black pipe. I cut a hole in the pipe about an inch in diameter. I covered that hole with some plastic mesh that came from a frozen veggie dish steamer thing from a frozen dinner i had. Then I glued the bottle to the pipe along the bottom. Ill drill the cap and house an air stone in it. The air goes through the tv dinner strainer steamer thing and hopefully fills the cave up.







I also made this outta some scraps of egg crate. Im not entirely sure what direction I am gonna go with this one. The pipe kinda limits your creativity so maybe this will take me a new direction creatively but I imagine it will just look like a little house.




Also, the stuff I mentioned i was gonna blow some money on has been ordered...

and I bought that big box of harbor freight brushes for fiber glassing.